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Virgin Media Have Just Screwed EVE

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Maximada Minmatar FM Corp Insomnia.	Posted - 2007.11.28 02:45:00 - [1] Being having serious high latencies in EVE for the past few days. however my broadband speeds were good. I got in touch with my ISP Virgin Media and explained the problem. What i heard was shocking and I will be interested to see if anyone else on Virgin ADSL has been effected. Basically Virgin have introduced what they call a 'Developer Prioritising System' and programs that are not set for high priorities by developer will come down the line really slow to make way for more important traffic. Known programmes so far that are being effected badly by vurgins new brainwave are EVE and the new version of Ventrilo. Virgin say that they have only introduced it recently and it is only active on ADSL. They also told me that it was upto the developers of certain programmes to set their applications priorities as high to avoid being throttled by this new system. They say the system has only been implemented in the east of england so far but will be implemented on the rest of the network within the coming weeks. To me this is pathetic. Im switch ISP tomorrow. I dont know who to choose yet so any input on that would be good. Also it would be nice if the devs could verify this with virgin and either work something out or slap richard branson a few times. Im paying for both services after all. Max.
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.28 02:49:00 - [2] I;m on cable if they do this they will actually lose both my connections Join The Fight With Promo Today
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2007.11.28 02:51:00 - [3] I dont think changing going to make it any better to be honest. BBC NewsLeave some comments about isp Free Corporation website? click here Trinity Corporate Services
Kenneth McCoy Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.28 03:04:00 - [4] Good christ at Japan D: My opinions and views are not the official views of my Corp.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.28 03:26:00 - [5] I have Virgin but its cable, If they throttled any games I would have the contract annulled as I have the XL Broadband which is advertised amongst other things as "For online gaming" If its only for their ADSL customers it might be something outside of their networks control that's why it doesn't apply to their cable network hopefully Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.28 03:28:00 - [6] Originally by: Paulo Damarr I have Virgin but its cable, If they throttled any games I would have the contract annulled as I have the XL Broadband which is advertised amongst other things as "For online gaming" If its only for their ADSL customers it might be something outside of their networks control that's why it doesn't apply to their cable network hopefully sane here I have the XL one too and I already paying over nose with them for what I get. Join The Fight With Promo Today
Danae Melios Azteca Transportation Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.28 06:51:00 - [7] This worries me. What are these settings that they refer to? Is it something that is a business-side deal, meaning content providers are now being charged to have their content delivered at high priority speeds? And will this impact CCP's servers as well as the end users? How much of the network does Virgin control over there, and how much would this throttling affect gameplay? Honestly, it seems like UK players are really getting the shaft from their ISPs. Originally by: game box Conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin.
Gamer Maximus	Posted - 2007.11.28 07:19:00 - [8] This will happen to other ISP's too; comcast is already killing P2P by blocking uploads. It was a matter of time before this happened, i for one am not surprised. Of course, because my father works for the government, we get a free T-3 line :D
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.11.28 07:24:00 - [9] They're not referring to application priorities, are they? I've read the OP a couple of times and it seems they're referring to actual system priorities, not a bandwidth throttle per se. If that's true, it does make sense for higher priority applications to get preference. Did you try increasing the priority of eve/ventrilo to "high"? On windows 2k, you can do this while they're running by going to the task manager, right-clicking on the exe name and selecting the desired priority (default is normal). I don't have xp/vista but I imagine it's similar.
Tyleritus The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services	Posted - 2007.11.28 07:29:00 - [10] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen They're not referring to application priorities, are they? I've read the OP a couple of times and it seems they're referring to actual system priorities, not a bandwidth throttle per se. If that's true, it does make sense for higher priority applications to get preference. Did you try increasing the priority of eve/ventrilo to "high"? On windows 2k, you can do this while they're running by going to the task manager, right-clicking on the exe name and selecting the desired priority (default is normal). I don't have xp/vista but I imagine it's similar. That will only give it high priority with your CPU not your connection. The Coalition Of Bucaneers Are Recruiting
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.11.28 07:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Tyleritus Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen They're not referring to application priorities, are they? I've read the OP a couple of times and it seems they're referring to actual system priorities, not a bandwidth throttle per se. If that's true, it does make sense for higher priority applications to get preference. Did you try increasing the priority of eve/ventrilo to "high"? On windows 2k, you can do this while they're running by going to the task manager, right-clicking on the exe name and selecting the desired priority (default is normal). I don't have xp/vista but I imagine it's similar. That will only give it high priority with your CPU not your connection. Exactly. Virgin is giving priority to programs with higher priority. Want bandwidth preference? Increase application priority.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.11.28 07:40:00 - [12] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 28/11/2007 07:41:16 The latest trend have been lately to see not internet as a public road, but as a source where you grade the customers what they are willing to pay you in addition. So the ISP charge the provider of a certain product extra to get a "prioritized" access on the line, which the provider really have to ship over to their customers. So you as a customer ends up paying "twice" for your internet access. Telenor, the major norwegian isp did this when they left the NIX system. Its cheating, its rotten, and I hate this new way of sucking money out of people. Not to mention its the wrong use of the internet as it was intended to be a independent communication line. Sarah McTeef: You all should really try and stay on topic. Which when I last checked, was my grocery list
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.11.28 07:47:00 - [13] I call shenanigans. They have simply found a fancy way to decrease the bandwidth lower-tier customers use. Altho, this is technically possible: relevant article and another. Judging from a quick look over those two texts I would say that EVE devs could remedy this problem rather easily. It's up to them.
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.11.28 07:48:00 - [14] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 28/11/2007 07:41:16 The latest trend have been lately to see not internet as a public road, but as a source where you grade the customers what they are willing to pay you in addition. So the ISP charge the provider of a certain product extra to get a "prioritized" access on the line, which the provider really have to ship over to their customers. So you as a customer ends up paying "twice" for your internet access. Telenor, the major norwegian isp did this when they left the NIX system. Its cheating, its rotten, and I hate this new way of sucking money out of people. Not to mention its the wrong use of the internet as it was intended to be a independent communication line. That does seem to be the new trend, but I don't think that's what's going on over at virgin media [yet]. Originally by: OP "developers of certain programmes to set their applications priorities as high to avoid being throttled by this new system" Makes me think that Virgin media isn't throttling specific things like these other cases and lends credence to what I believe, that it's just basing traffic on the actual priority of the application requesting access. It does make sense when you think about it. Why would application X share half the bandwidth with application Y when X is high priority and Y is low?
Bimjo Caldari SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2007.11.28 07:53:00 - [15] good god, this is bad news for VM customers on ADSL
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.11.28 07:53:00 - [16] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Makes me think that Virgin media isn't throttling specific things like these other cases and lends credence to what I believe, that it's just basing traffic on the actual priority of the application requesting access. It does make sense when you think about it. Why would application X share half the bandwidth with application Y when X is high priority and Y is low? In a nutshell, this is True.
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.11.28 07:59:00 - [17] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen It does make sense when you think about it. Why would application X share half the bandwidth with application Y when X is high priority and Y is low? It does not make sense when you have more than half a clue about how the internet works. There is no way to determine, by monitoring the traffic between 2 hosts, what the process priority is at either end.
Dire Lauthris Bridgeburners Squadron	Posted - 2007.11.28 08:02:00 - [18] What an utter load of rubbish. Unfortunately this is becoming an ever more widespread tactic by UK ISPs (I'm not sure this happens elsewhere). Essentially people are lured in with great looking deals (ú30/month for Broadband, TV and phone). After grace periods are over people start getting resource limited, all of which you've (probably unknowingly) accepted within your T&Cs. The general intent seems to be to try upsell customers to their more expensive deals. I'd love to hear what their definition of "high priority" traffic is. Do they fit the TCP packets with flashing blue lights and a siren? It's beyond a joke. What they've implemented is probably QoS, essentially traffic shaping based on their own set of protocols. My constant suggestion for people on ADSL is to look at the smaller independant ISPs. They're generally so keen for customer numbers being leeched by the massive AOLs/VM/BTs they bend over backwards to provide a good service as they can't afford to lose customers. ------ [The Exiled]
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.28 08:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Maglorre Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen It does make sense when you think about it. Why would application X share half the bandwidth with application Y when X is high priority and Y is low? It does not make sense when you have more than half a clue about how the internet works. There is no way to determine, by monitoring the traffic between 2 hosts, what the process priority is at either end. That is true. But I think some form of spamware installed can determine, be it a spamware program to install or even vista! / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.28 08:30:00 - [20] Edited by: Andrue on 28/11/2007 08:32:10 Originally by: Dire Lauthris What an utter load of rubbish. Unfortunately this is becoming an ever more widespread tactic by UK ISPs (I'm not sure this happens elsewhere). Sadly it's starting to happen in the US as well although there ISPs are being sued. As for Virgin Media.. Well first of all like several posters I don't understand the OP's description of what VM have supposedly done. You can't control traffic based on the process priority - it's simply a nonesense whichever way you look at it. I think VM are just implementing traffic shaping (which a lot of ISPs across the world do) and for some reason they have made things worse for their ADSL customers. Probably it's because their ADSL customers are using BT's IPStream and VM have cut back on the budget. In effect they are treating those customers as second-class citizens. It's pretty much the attitude that cable companies have always had. They rolled out cable to less than half the country then sat back and tried to live off the profits. If they were still expanding their cable network then making ADSL look bad would be a **ty marketing tactic. Unfortunately they aren't extending their cable networks so it's just penny pinching and pointless. My advice if you're with VM using ADSL is to leave. There are far better ISPs out there that can provide a better service. Leave VM to the cable users. It'll probably be better for everyone if it concentrates on it's cash cow rather than trying to compete in an already saturated ADSL market. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.**
Arcticblue2 Gallente Nordic Freelancers inc	Posted - 2007.11.28 08:38:00 - [21] To me that sounds like what Telenor tried to do here in Norway where they made priorities to companies that paid them and companies like NRK (national TV station in Norway) who did not pay got slow line so people who had Telenors broadband in some cases could not access NRK's pages even. ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor.
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.11.28 08:46:00 - [22] Originally by: Dire Lauthris I'd love to hear what their definition of "high priority" traffic is. Do they fit the TCP packets with flashing blue lights and a siren?. Yes, actually. There's a field in the TCP packet header called ToS (type of service). They could be using that, and developers of applications are the ones that control the values in this field.
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.11.28 08:46:00 - [23] Edited by: Moghydin on 28/11/2007 08:46:57 ISP's are playing with customers' bandwidth and ports more and more often. I had experience when suddenly I had Eve being more and more laggy even when everyone else had no lag at all. I called my ISP and the senior tech support person said that they are throttling higher ports and also using packet analyzers which plainly throw away some packets of the traffic they see as "bad", i.e. P2P programs (that is after junior tech support guy pretended not to understand what I'm talking about). He also told me that there's a "gaming package" with all ports open and I have to pay a little bit extra for that (I wasn't even aware of this package existence when I signed with this ISP). Next day I've canceled my account and moved to another ISP. I have all ports working and no packet analyzers are apparently in place... for now. Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
Rabs Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.28 08:55:00 - [24] This sounds like Virgin Media ADSL to me rather than cable. Im on the XL package and we already have a simple form of 'management' called STM which just throttles your connection at peak times if you go over certain limits. Its been a long known fact that VM ADSL is well oversubscribed and VM have reacted a little too late. Looks like they're trying to implement DPI (Deep Packet Inspection) traffic management like lots of other ISP's have. DPI based traffic management is a good thing when done properly and works fine for gaming with very minimal latency loss. Its the ISP's that dont implement it properly that do the damage - Tiscali to name but one :/ Hopefully Virgin (ADSL) will get it right and things should improve for the gamer tremendously. The question is DPI will probably replace STM on the cable side of things eventually so I'll be watching what they do closely...
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.28 08:56:00 - [25] Sorry, I do not mean to be blunt but this is normal in business world. We call it product differentiation. You pay for what you get. If you are planning to switch ISP for better internet access then make sure you find an expensive provider. They would surely do no throttling unless you go for the budget package. Hope this helps. :) --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.11.28 09:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Sorry, I do not mean to be blunt but this is normal in business world. We call it product differentiation. You pay for what you get. If you are planning to switch ISP for better internet access then make sure you find an expensive provider. They would surely do no throttling unless you go for the budget package. Hope this helps. :) What do you mean "you pay for what you get"? Tbh, this is a borderline issue and it is worth to let an attorney to have a look at the contract. Some ISP's may not have been careful enough to avoid any cause for litigation over their "product differentiation" games. The problem is that most customers won't bother and ISPs will continue to do whatever they want with their bandwidth, trying to not upset the big sharks and neglecting small customers. I can verify that our corporate internet connection was never packet analyzed or port throttled at any time. If that would happen, the ISP would have been in court long time ago. Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.28 09:13:00 - [27] Originally by: warwick pearmund My broadband is excellent, 100 Mbps as standard, and it works exactly as advertised. Of course living in Japan helps.The UK desperately needs to upgrade its network or else it is in danger of being left behind the rest of the industrialised world Lifted from the BBC debate and sums it up perfectly imho. Originally by: N1fty So what your really trying to get at is that the universe is in fact Emo?
DJ P	Posted - 2007.11.28 09:33:00 - [28] OK The well known issues about bandwidth etc, (and the article on BBC) are for ADSL lines. The copper cables running your phones, and the very old BT exchanges. With cable lines (named DSL not ADSL) was never an issue in the UK market. They work perfectly. (That's the major fight with my wife who want to move house. I refuse to go to an area without cable coverage) As people said above you pay what you get. A company with 8mbit ADSL is getting charged 800 quid per year (providers who deal with companies only), and a house the "up to 8mbit" 130-180 quid per year? Are the companies stupid? Hell no. Because the business 8mbit line will always run at 8mbit without failure. EVER. They pay for it. On the other side the Home "up to 8mbit" ADSL is subject to "up to", throttling etc. And the bandwidth is limited given for houses use in the area. The more people in one area get ADSL, and more they use it, the less of the bandwidth each individual will get. And that's not fault of your Provider. But the BT Exchange box in your area. Solutions? A) Get a cable line from Virgin (ex NTL). They are perfect. (the 2Mbit is fine with EVE in bit PVP battles) B) Move house to remote areas with ADSL coverage. (North Yorkshire, etc). C) Find which of your neighbourghs are using P2P networks and report them to the authorities. 99% of them, are downloading something illegal.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.28 09:37:00 - [29] Originally by: Moghydin I can verify that our corporate internet connection was never packet analyzed or port throttled at any time. If that would happen, the ISP would have been in court long time ago. Hi Moghydin. Does your company run torrent network? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
VaderDSL Caldari Personal Vendetta	Posted - 2007.11.28 09:51:00 - [30] Originally by: DJ P OK The well known issues about bandwidth etc, (and the article on BBC) are for ADSL lines. The copper cables running your phones, and the very old BT exchanges. With cable lines (named DSL not ADSL) was never an issue in the UK market. They work perfectly. (That's the major fight with my wife who want to move house. I refuse to go to an area without cable coverage) As people said above you pay what you get. A company with 8mbit ADSL is getting charged 800 quid per year (providers who deal with companies only), and a house the "up to 8mbit" 130-180 quid per year? Are the companies stupid? Hell no. Because the business 8mbit line will always run at 8mbit without failure. EVER. They pay for it. On the other side the Home "up to 8mbit" ADSL is subject to "up to", throttling etc. And the bandwidth is limited given for houses use in the area. The more people in one area get ADSL, and more they use it, the less of the bandwidth each individual will get. And that's not fault of your Provider. But the BT Exchange box in your area. Solutions? A) Get a cable line from Virgin (ex NTL). They are perfect. (the 2Mbit is fine with EVE in bit PVP battles) B) Move house to remote areas with ADSL coverage. (North Yorkshire, etc). C) Find which of your neighbourghs are using P2P networks and report them to the authorities. 99% of them, are downloading something illegal. I live in a cable area, the only time my 20mb advertised line works as advertised (at 20mb) is in the early hours due to Virgin oversubscribing the UBR's especially where I live in the Student capital of Manchester, cable is far from perfect, I had more reliable connections on an ADSL connection from a good provider.

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CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!